Standing Committee D

[Mr. Eric Forth in the Chair]

Employment Relations Bill

Ordered, 
That— 
 (1) during the remaining proceedings on the Employment Relations Bill the Standing Committee do meet— 
 (a) at half-past Two o'clock on Tuesday 24th February 2004 and Thursday 26th February 2004; 
 (b) at half-past Nine o'clock and half-past Two o'clock on Tuesday 2nd March 2004; 
 (2) the proceedings to be taken on the sittings shall be as shown in the second column of the Table below and shall be taken in the order so shown; 
 (3) the proceedings which under paragraph (2) are to be taken on any sitting shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the time indicated in the Table; 
 (4) paragraph (2) does not prevent proceedings being taken (in the order shown in the second column of the Table) at any earlier sitting than that provided for under paragraph (2) if previous proceedings have already been concluded. 
TABLE
 SittingProceedings Time for conclusion of proceedings 7th New Clauses, New Schedules, Clauses 43 to 45, Schedules 1 and 2, remaining proceedings on the Bill —  8th New Clauses, New Schedules, Clauses 43 to 45, Schedules 1 and 2, remaining proceedings on the Bill —  9th New Clauses, New Schedules, Clauses 43 to 45, Schedules 1 and 2, remaining proceedings on the Bill —  10th New Clauses, New Schedules, Clauses 43 to 45, Schedules 1 and 2, remaining proceedings on the Bill 6.55 pm  [Mr. Sutcliffe]  New Clause 4A Information and consultation: Northern Ireland   No. NC4A, to move the following Clause:—  '(1) The Department for Employment and Learning may make regulations for the purpose of conferring on employees of an employer to whom the regulations apply, or on representatives of those employees, rights—  (a) to be informed by the employer about prescribed matters;  (b) to be consulted by the employer about prescribed matters.  (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) must make provision as to the employers to whom the regulations apply which may include provision—  (a) applying the regulations by reference to factors including the number of employees in the United Kingdom in the employer's undertaking;  (b) as to the method by which the number of employees in an employer's undertaking is to be calculated; andColumn Number: 180   (c) applying the regulations to different descriptions of employer with effect from different dates.  (3) Regulations made under subsection (1) may make provision—  (a) as to the circumstances in which the rights mentioned in subsection (1) arise and the extent of those rights;  (b) for and about the initiation and conduct of negotiations between employers to whom the regulations apply and their employees for the purposes of reaching an agreement satisfying prescribed conditions about the provision of information to the employees, and consultation of them (whether that provision or consultation is to be direct or through representatives);  (c) about the representatives the employees may have for the purposes of the regulations and the method by which those representatives are to be selected;  (d) as to the resolution of disputes and the enforcement of obligations imposed by the regulations or by an agreement of the kind mentioned in paragraph (b).  (4) Regulations made under subsection (1) may—  (a) confer jurisdiction (including exclusive jurisdiction) on industrial tribunals and on the High Court;  (b) confer functions on the Industrial Court;  (c) require or authorise the holding of ballots;  (d) amend, apply with or without modifications, or make provision similar to any provision of—  (i) the Industrial Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (S.I. 1992/807 (N.I. 5));  (ii) the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (S.I. 1995/1980 (N.I. 12));  (iii) the Employment Rights (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (S.I. 1996/1919 (N.I. 16)) (including, in particular, Parts 6, 11 and 15); or  (iv) the Industrial Tribunals (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (S.I. 1996/1921 (N.I. 18));  (e) include supplemental, incidental, consequential and transitional provision, including provision amending any enactment;  (f) make different provision for different cases or circumstances.  (5) Regulations made under subsection (1) may make any provision which appears to the Department for Employment and Learning to be necessary or expedient—  (a) for the purpose of implementing Directive 2002/14/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 2002 establishing a general framework for informing and consulting employees in the European Community;  (b) for the purpose of dealing with any matter arising out of or related to the United Kingdom's obligations under that Directive.  (6) Nothing in subsections (2) to (5) prejudices the generality of this section.  (7) Power to make regulations under this section is exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (S.I. 1979/1573 (N.I. 12)).  (8) No regulations under this section may be made unless a draft of the regulations has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the Northern Ireland Assembly.  (9) In this section—  ''enactment'' includes—  (a) a provision of an Act;  (b) a provision of, or of any instrument made under, Northern Ireland legislation; and  (c) a provision of subordinate legislation;  ''the Industrial Court'' means the Industrial Court constituted under Article 91 of the Industrial Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (S.I. 1992/807 (N.I. 5));  ''industrial tribunals'' has the meaning given by section 42(5) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 (c.33 (N.I.)); and  ''prescribed'' means prescribed by regulations under this section.'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]  Brought up, and read the First time.Column Number: 181  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 55 to 57. Mr. Sutcliffe: Mr. Forth, welcome to the Chair this afternoon for our debate, which I hope we will address swiftly, but we shall see. This group of amendments concerns the implementation of the European directive on information and consultation in Northern Ireland. It was tabled by the Government on 10 February 2003. The European directive on information and consultation was adopted in March 2002 and must be implemented by March 2005. The directive establishes new minimum standards for work force communication and involvement in large firms. The directive will be given effect in the UK through separate Great Britain and Northern Ireland regulations. We in Great Britain propose to take the necessary power through clause 31. As employment is a devolved matter, Northern Ireland should make its own separate regulations to give effect to the directive.  Consultations on the directive's implementation have been undertaken in Northern Ireland, in 2002 and 2003 respectively. The responses have been similar to those received in the equivalent consultations here in Great Britain and have contributed to the overall UK approach to implementing the directive.  The Department for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland proposes to bring forward legislation, which in the main will mirror the Bill. During the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly, it will be in the form of an Order in Council, which will be made by negative resolution on this occasion. However, Northern Ireland requires a separate power to make the regulations on information and consultation, similar to the power provided in clause 31. That is because if devolution is restored before the Order in Council implementing the provisions of the Employment Relations Bill is made, the legislation would revert to an Assembly Bill, making it extremely unlikely that Northern Ireland would have the information and consultation power in time to make regulations by the March 2005 deadline.  Northern Ireland, like Great Britain, must make its regulations in good time. Failure to do so could have serious consequences: the UK as a whole would be considered to be in breach of its obligations and would be open to infraction proceedings by the Commission. To eliminate that risk, the Minister for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland has requested a separate clause in the Bill to give the power to the Department for Employment and Learning also.  I shall speak briefly to the consequential amendments grouped with the new clause. Amendment No. 55 removes the requirement for corresponding provision for Northern Ireland to extend to information and consultation. Northern Ireland will take power directly from the Employment Relations Bill when it is enacted. Amendment No. 56 ensures that Northern Ireland will have the power to Column Number: 182 make regulations on information and consultation on the day the Bill receives Royal Assent, enabling the regulations to be made as soon as possible. Amendment No. 57 extends territorial extent on information and consultation to Northern Ireland. I commend the new clause and the consequential amendments for inclusion in the Bill.  Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): I welcome you to this afternoon's proceedings, Mr. Forth. I listened carefully to the Minister's explanation. I am not clear about one thing. The Northern Ireland Assembly was suspended last May, if my memory serves me correctly. There was, of course, a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Since then, however, two other Ministers have been appointed to the team of Northern Ireland Ministers, which predates the publication of the Green Paper and the two papers that we discussed this morning in relation to clause 31—the July 2002 paper entitled ''High Performance Workplaces: The role of employee involvement in a modern economy'', and ''High Performance Workplaces: Informing and Consulting Employees'', which followed the CBI and TUC agreement on a joint framework. The latter paper was issued almost exactly a year later in July 2003, and sought views from a wider audience on the proposed scheme.  I do not understand why the clause could not have been included in the Bill from the outset, because the DTI has known for a long time that provisions would need to be made for exactly the eventuality that the Minister discussed. There would be a technical and legal problem if the devolved Administration were restored before the Orders in Council were made. Surely the Government have had time to work this out. It concerns me that the Committee is being used to introduce new clauses. We are prepared to be understanding and tolerate that, but a full explanation is needed because there has been plenty of time to work this one out.  The Minister touched on the consultation in Northern Ireland. We know that Northern Ireland now has a much more robust and successful economy than it had 10 years ago. Many of the larger businesses have gone into decline, but there has been a revolution in financial services and in the small firms sector. There is a whole new enterprise culture, and a much greater cross-flow of capital and enterprise over the border. For the first year of my return to this place, I served on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. We paid several visits to Northern Ireland, and I was amazed at how strong and robust the economies were in the border towns. Will the Minister say what feedback was given during the consultation? Was there a separate ''High Performance Workplace: Informing and Consulting Employees'' document for Northern Ireland, or did the DTI consult Northern Ireland with one document? What meetings took place, and what sort of response to the information and consultation directive did the Minister receive in the Province? Has the document received the support from industry that the Minister claimed it was given on the mainland? What reaction has there been from the trade unions? Column Number: 183 The Minister explained the new clause, and we understand his logic, but why could the Government not have done their homework and got this right in the first place?

New Clause 4A - Information and consultation: Northern Ireland

No. NC4A, to move the following Clause:— 
 '(1) The Department for Employment and Learning may make regulations for the purpose of conferring on employees of an employer to whom the regulations apply, or on representatives of those employees, rights— 
 (a) to be informed by the employer about prescribed matters; 
 (b) to be consulted by the employer about prescribed matters. 
 (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) must make provision as to the employers to whom the regulations apply which may include provision— 
 (a) applying the regulations by reference to factors including the number of employees in the United Kingdom in the employer's undertaking; 
 (b) as to the method by which the number of employees in an employer's undertaking is to be calculated; and
 (c) applying the regulations to different descriptions of employer with effect from different dates. 
 (3) Regulations made under subsection (1) may make provision— 
 (a) as to the circumstances in which the rights mentioned in subsection (1) arise and the extent of those rights; 
 (b) for and about the initiation and conduct of negotiations between employers to whom the regulations apply and their employees for the purposes of reaching an agreement satisfying prescribed conditions about the provision of information to the employees, and consultation of them (whether that provision or consultation is to be direct or through representatives); 
 (c) about the representatives the employees may have for the purposes of the regulations and the method by which those representatives are to be selected; 
 (d) as to the resolution of disputes and the enforcement of obligations imposed by the regulations or by an agreement of the kind mentioned in paragraph (b). 
 (4) Regulations made under subsection (1) may— 
 (a) confer jurisdiction (including exclusive jurisdiction) on industrial tribunals and on the High Court; 
 (b) confer functions on the Industrial Court; 
 (c) require or authorise the holding of ballots; 
 (d) amend, apply with or without modifications, or make provision similar to any provision of— 
 (i) the Industrial Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (S.I. 1992/807 (N.I. 5)); 
 (ii) the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (S.I. 1995/1980 (N.I. 12)); 
 (iii) the Employment Rights (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (S.I. 1996/1919 (N.I. 16)) (including, in particular, Parts 6, 11 and 15); or 
 (iv) the Industrial Tribunals (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (S.I. 1996/1921 (N.I. 18)); 
 (e) include supplemental, incidental, consequential and transitional provision, including provision amending any enactment; 
 (f) make different provision for different cases or circumstances. 
 (5) Regulations made under subsection (1) may make any provision which appears to the Department for Employment and Learning to be necessary or expedient— 
 (a) for the purpose of implementing Directive 2002/14/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 2002 establishing a general framework for informing and consulting employees in the European Community; 
 (b) for the purpose of dealing with any matter arising out of or related to the United Kingdom's obligations under that Directive. 
 (6) Nothing in subsections (2) to (5) prejudices the generality of this section. 
 (7) Power to make regulations under this section is exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (S.I. 1979/1573 (N.I. 12)). 
 (8) No regulations under this section may be made unless a draft of the regulations has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the Northern Ireland Assembly. 
 (9) In this section— 
 ''enactment'' includes— 
 (a) a provision of an Act; 
 (b) a provision of, or of any instrument made under, Northern Ireland legislation; and 
 (c) a provision of subordinate legislation; 
 ''the Industrial Court'' means the Industrial Court constituted under Article 91 of the Industrial Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (S.I. 1992/807 (N.I. 5)); 
 ''industrial tribunals'' has the meaning given by section 42(5) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 (c.33 (N.I.)); and 
 ''prescribed'' means prescribed by regulations under this section.'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.] 
 Brought up, and read the First time.

Gerry Sutcliffe: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Eric Forth: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 55 to 57.

Gerry Sutcliffe: Mr. Forth, welcome to the Chair this afternoon for our debate, which I hope we will address swiftly, but we shall see.
 This group of amendments concerns the implementation of the European directive on information and consultation in Northern Ireland. It was tabled by the Government on 10 February 2003. The European directive on information and consultation was adopted in March 2002 and must be implemented by March 2005. The directive establishes new minimum standards for work force communication and involvement in large firms. The directive will be given effect in the UK through separate Great Britain and Northern Ireland regulations. We in Great Britain propose to take the necessary power through clause 31. As employment is a devolved matter, Northern Ireland should make its own separate regulations to give effect to the directive. 
 Consultations on the directive's implementation have been undertaken in Northern Ireland, in 2002 and 2003 respectively. The responses have been similar to those received in the equivalent consultations here in Great Britain and have contributed to the overall UK approach to implementing the directive. 
 The Department for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland proposes to bring forward legislation, which in the main will mirror the Bill. During the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly, it will be in the form of an Order in Council, which will be made by negative resolution on this occasion. However, Northern Ireland requires a separate power to make the regulations on information and consultation, similar to the power provided in clause 31. That is because if devolution is restored before the Order in Council implementing the provisions of the Employment Relations Bill is made, the legislation would revert to an Assembly Bill, making it extremely unlikely that Northern Ireland would have the information and consultation power in time to make regulations by the March 2005 deadline. 
 Northern Ireland, like Great Britain, must make its regulations in good time. Failure to do so could have serious consequences: the UK as a whole would be considered to be in breach of its obligations and would be open to infraction proceedings by the Commission. To eliminate that risk, the Minister for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland has requested a separate clause in the Bill to give the power to the Department for Employment and Learning also. 
 I shall speak briefly to the consequential amendments grouped with the new clause. Amendment No. 55 removes the requirement for corresponding provision for Northern Ireland to extend to information and consultation. Northern Ireland will take power directly from the Employment Relations Bill when it is enacted. Amendment No. 56 ensures that Northern Ireland will have the power to 
 make regulations on information and consultation on the day the Bill receives Royal Assent, enabling the regulations to be made as soon as possible. Amendment No. 57 extends territorial extent on information and consultation to Northern Ireland. I commend the new clause and the consequential amendments for inclusion in the Bill.

Henry Bellingham: I welcome you to this afternoon's proceedings, Mr. Forth.
 I listened carefully to the Minister's explanation. I am not clear about one thing. The Northern Ireland Assembly was suspended last May, if my memory serves me correctly. There was, of course, a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Since then, however, two other Ministers have been appointed to the team of Northern Ireland Ministers, which predates the publication of the Green Paper and the two papers that we discussed this morning in relation to clause 31—the July 2002 paper entitled ''High Performance Workplaces: The role of employee involvement in a modern economy'', and ''High Performance Workplaces: Informing and Consulting Employees'', which followed the CBI and TUC agreement on a joint framework. The latter paper was issued almost exactly a year later in July 2003, and sought views from a wider audience on the proposed scheme. 
 I do not understand why the clause could not have been included in the Bill from the outset, because the DTI has known for a long time that provisions would need to be made for exactly the eventuality that the Minister discussed. There would be a technical and legal problem if the devolved Administration were restored before the Orders in Council were made. Surely the Government have had time to work this out. It concerns me that the Committee is being used to introduce new clauses. We are prepared to be understanding and tolerate that, but a full explanation is needed because there has been plenty of time to work this one out. 
 The Minister touched on the consultation in Northern Ireland. We know that Northern Ireland now has a much more robust and successful economy than it had 10 years ago. Many of the larger businesses have gone into decline, but there has been a revolution in financial services and in the small firms sector. There is a whole new enterprise culture, and a much greater cross-flow of capital and enterprise over the border. For the first year of my return to this place, I served on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. We paid several visits to Northern Ireland, and I was amazed at how strong and robust the economies were in the border towns. Will the Minister say what feedback was given during the consultation? Was there a separate ''High Performance Workplace: Informing and Consulting Employees'' document for Northern Ireland, or did the DTI consult Northern Ireland with one document? What meetings took place, and what sort of response to the information and consultation directive did the Minister receive in the Province? Has the document received the support from industry that the Minister claimed it was given on the mainland? What reaction has there been from the trade unions? 
 The Minister explained the new clause, and we understand his logic, but why could the Government not have done their homework and got this right in the first place?

Gerry Sutcliffe: This morning we had an excellent debate on information and consultation and the reason why the Government and others believe it to be important to address modern employment relations. There was a general understanding of the business case for having information and consultation so that the work force are well informed and people understand their business's needs—for example, for skills and training—throughout their employment. Those issues apply equally to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland was involved in the consultation process in the same way as the rest of the UK, and the feedback was similar in respect of the way that business union employers and employees felt about these issues. I am grateful to the hon. Member for recognising the great strides that have been made in the Province over the past 10 years. We hope that that will continue, and that the Assembly will be back in place as early as possible.
 I do not accept the criticism that we have taken too long. This was the first opportunity in this Bill to make sure that we got the position right regarding the information consultation directive and the dates of its implementation. We had to make sure that people in Northern Ireland could take advantage of the directive, and that we were not putting anyone in danger of the Commission or anyone else issuing proceedings against them. As I say, employers in Northern Ireland feel that they would benefit from a better-informed, better-motivated and more committed work force, and they see the benefits of information consultation in the same way as their 
 counterparts in the UK. I cannot add anything more to what I said earlier today. My ministerial colleagues for Northern Ireland have been involved in the discussions concerning information consultation, and I believe it would be beneficial, just as it would be for the rest of the UK. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's criticism. I think this is the first and best opportunity to ensure that the directive is implemented in a way that will benefit the whole of the community.

Henry Bellingham: I am grateful to the Minister but, with respect, I put a narrow point to him: the Northern Ireland Assembly has been suspended for a long time—in fact it has been suspended throughout the duration of the whole process leading up to this Bill—so why could this new clause not have been included in the original Bill?

Gerry Sutcliffe: I have clearly not given the hon. Gentleman the answer that he wants. I have tried to explain how this Bill has come together, what the Government's thinking has been and how we have looked at the implementation of the directive alongside the framework agreement recently reached between the CBI and the TUC. This is the first opportunity that we have had to ensure that Northern Ireland is included in an appropriate way through the clauses and amendments that we have moved.
 Question put and agreed to. 
 Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill. 
Further consideration adjourned.—[Charlotte Atkins.] 
 Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes to Three o'clock till Thursday 26 February at half-past Two o'clock.